10 reasons having a religion is madness


(ACD) #62

The point is that humans apparently do not not need moral truth to survive. Moral truth stands outside of human development and survival. Yet we are guided by moral truth even when we transgress. Nothing to do with genetics.


(Bill Ames) #63

There are many things that are outside how humans behave. Most are controlled by genetics and the circumstances. Often it is the decisions that we make that control our behaviour. Many decisions are random, not rational, not based on data. And what do you mean survive? If the planet only had AIs breading humans with the best DNA design would that be surviving?


(ACD) #64

In the future world which you imagine, moral truth must be programmed into AI robots. By survive, I mean the opposite of extinction.


(Bill Ames) #65

Programmed in? Like this?

A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm. A robot must obey orders given it by human beings except where such orders would conflict with the First Law. A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.

Once the DNA code is decoded anything that was ever a result of DNA will be alive.


(ACD) #66

That is HAL’s programming, yet HAL lied and was willing to kill.


(Bill Ames) #67

The novel explains that HAL is unable to resolve a conflict between his general mission to relay information accurately and orders specific to the mission requiring that he withhold from Bowman and Poole the true purpose of the mission. With the crew dead, he reasons, he would not need to be lying to them. He fabricates the failure of the AE-35 unit so that their deaths would appear accidental.

In other words, HAL is asked to lie , and he doesn’t take to it very well, to say the least. The conflict between his mission objectives backs him into a corner where he has to make some pretty big (and cold) leaps in logic in order to reconcile the paradox in his programmed orders.


(ACD) #68

It would have been better had HAL been programmed with moral truth.


(Bill Ames) #69

The self-driving vehicles, if we program them with “moral truth” you would have to convince them that where you wished to go has a necessary and good reason. That AI taking your order in a restaurant would only have menu items that you are permitted to eat. The AI doctor would only give life-saving care if your life was worth saving. Complicated.


(ACD) #70

Excessively and unnecessarily complicated. Moral truths are simple and uncomplicated.


(Bill Ames) #71

And they must be properly interpreted by a usually dysfunctional mind and those are very common. How often do you meet people you totally agree with? Never. So, you are surrounded by people who are too often in error of their knowledge or their interpretation of their knowledge. And what do you get? A lot of bad decisions and many will cause you a problem.

This is why I prefer my universe and the aliens who do not have any problems. This is a challenge because humans seem to need problems to be solved in their entertainment.


(ACD) #72

@BillAmes
Let’s focus on one (relatively) uncontroversial moral truth: it is wrong for one human to kill another. Your view?


(Bill Ames) #73

So, don’t drop the bomb on Japan?


(ACD) #74

Good heavens! No! Why would one do that?


(Bill Ames) #75

Well, it finally ended WWII!


(ACD) #76

This is the main reason having religion is NOT madness. The use of atomic weapons made the US the top dog and drenched it in guilt for all time to come. It did NOT end war. It launched a new more terrible phase of war.


(Bill Ames) #77

I said “Well, it finally ended WWII!” and you said it did not end war. I do not see a connection. We had no guilt, they started it, we ended it.

What is a “phase of war?”

An alien race could just put stuff in the water to make the human race steril and come back in 200 years and collect what they want.

War is obsolete, no more world wars can be fought as there can be no winners.


(ACD) #78

It is a long explanation and very well done here.


A Century of War Anglo-American: Oil Politics and the New World Order
(Tania Annisa) #79

I’ve been, let say, trapped in the given religion of my parent. The theories and application in daily just don’t make any sense. Although they keep repeating that it gives many benefits. So then when I tried to debate them and asking many ‘why’ questions, they would counter with the ultimate words ‘God will punish us’.

The highlight is anything that we do opposite from God’s will, giving everyone a huge disgrace. I won’t name the religion but yes it is one of the biggest religion. So after detach from it, I just realized that world is much bigger than that. Our lives are not determine by the ridiculous rule book which doesn’t allow you to ask why. But instead it is teach us ‘this is right, they’re who do not believe is wrong’. This is like, ‘our neighbors who are unbelievers living in sins’ yet in fact they are kind people.


(Justin Brown) #80

Thank for bringing this up, @Ezkiel. I’m sure many people can relate to the struggle you’ve experienced, facing up to the reality that your religion was given to you by others as opposed to consciously chosen by yourself.

In many ways you have “broken the shackles” of parental programming. It’s described very well in this article by @Ruda:

This sounds like a wonderful state of mind to be experiencing. I know it can be lonely at times but I hope that what you find on Ideapod can inspire you to continue exploring this world.