Work is what works for life

(Chris Lagos) #1

We don’t need to work merely in order to simplify the world for ourselves, I think it’s more complicated than that.
A normal part of my morning routine is to train my sons dog, teaching her tricks, I take a hot dog, break off a piece, have her perform a trick, reward her then repeat til the hot dog is gone, then she runs next door to play with her friend.
This morning, I was chatting with my wife when Bella came in for her session, I decided to just give her the whole hot dog because I was engrossed in conversation. Bella gave me a weird look, took the hot dog, and walked off , ate the hot dog, but instead of running next door, she came back in animated fashion to get my attention. I then went through her training session and she left. She didn’t merely want the treat, she wanted to do her skills then get treated to reinforce the value of her skill. As if the acknowledgement was more important than the physical treat.
That we need to meet societal needs with our skill to master the environment physically and mentally and receive proof of appreciation via monies to stabilize the psyche and create a home. These are foundational human axioms, mere money doesn’t suffice.
This serves to reinforce my hypothesis that the direction we are heading with AI technology can only lead to destruction of humanity. If all our strength and intelligence is a result of human struggle, what utility is there in reducing human struggle with robots and AI.
I recall the days before GPS. I could visualize how to navigate, soon that inate human mechanism will be gone in mental atrophy.
We underestimate the need for fellow humans to have work before them, to be working towards a goal, it is a fundamental human axiom. The question a company like Uber should ask itself is, what is the utility in taking all human driving jobs and ultimately all jobs to take in money, if ultimately there is no society in which to spend that money in ?

(Bill Ames) #2

Well, I will agree, a doctor from the 1850s could probably do a better analysis in many cases then a typical physician from today but the doctor today has a CAT scan to look at, the GPS of the body, so our poor doctor from 2019 would not be all that good in 1850 because they have lost so many skills. When the AI can do diagnostics on your car or your body or your mind do you want the guy in the gas station tinkering with that PC under the hood or those organs in your body (by a doctor with out a CAT scan, not the mechanic?) Let us face the future and boldly go in that direction, in 280 years we will be totally dependent on AIs. When my grandmother passed in the late 50s from cancer there was nothing they could do, today there are many more tools available. The tools of 280 years from now will be very useful to all of the people. The future is where it is all happening, enjoy the ride.

(Barry McCormack) #3

I understand the need humans have for challenge and self esteem but I don’t think having more choices will destroy society. I don’t imagine you are teaching your sons dog for money. When professionals like doctors get rich they don’t generally stop working. There is great reward in what they do besides money and just because we can be transported by uber doesn’t take away our option to walk or cycle.
There are a lot of people saying they are scared of robots ‘taking our jobs’ like that’s a bad thing. It doesn’t have to be. I’d rather enjoy myself than clock on everyday to stack shelves or whatever. If I find something to do that’s good for society, even better.
I know many people fear change and not all change is good but it’s really unavoidable and I think it’s best to approach it with a positive mental attitude.
Some would say that animals aren’t very intelligent but we can still learn a lot from them. I don’t imagine they spend much time worrying about AI.

(Chris Lagos) #4

I suspect the over simplistic paradigm of "well progress is progress, you can’t stop it " is a non-sequitur at best and problematic at worst. First of all , all happenings are progress in one fashion or another, the question is where is this progress leading in the short and long term. When an action happens, ask yourself, what has been lost? And what has been gained?
You may say, ai driving all cars will make us safer.
Yes, but at what cost, do you really need risk and danger outlawed ? Then at that point another freedom is taken in the name of progress and safety, and another. With no task, goal or job what are you reduced to ? Do you really need to be a kept man ?
What if in 50 years a solar flare wipes out electronics, will atrophied human skills make society function again ? I wonder.

(Chris Lagos) #5

I suspect it’s not as simple as fear of change, we need to see with clarity, in my view. I don’t fear change per se.
On a side note , I was at a fish n chips place yesterday with my wife, they had a jug on the counter with a label that said, if you fear change, leave it here. :slight_smile: .

(Bill Ames) #6

Not to worry. We have enough countries that do not permit their people enough freedom so they will miss the effects of the flare and be available to rebuild. This seems to make it necessary to maintain countries like these, we can not have a world of high tech. The AIs will be the gate keepers. This conversation is really food for some science fiction shows, we should keep it going. Note that we get a total turnover every 140 years so there will always be new groups to argue with our AI managers.

(Chris Lagos) #7

I can think you missed my point, it’s not about money , money is the treat, the reinforcement that our efforts have value.

(Barry McCormack) #8

You’re quite right. We need to be intelligent and prepare for possible disasters and not just rely on machines, especially ones that rely on electricity.
Solar power can take away the need for a lot of polluting methods like burning coal but we can’t and shouldn’t rely wholly on solar for instance.
I just don’t agree with the now common black and white thinking like ‘positive thinking is bad’. We need to be cautious but not necessarily negative. I believe it just spreads paranoia and isn’t always helpful. Of course everyone’s entitled to their opinion but I think it’s good to look at things from different angles.

(Barry McCormack) #9

Lol. Brilliant :grinning:
Yes I might have missed the point a little but if AI does everything for us I’m sure we will still find things to do in exploration and research etc.

(Barry McCormack) #10

Something that bothers me most about this subject, especially about AI is that it is initially designed by humans and learns as it goes. Just like humans, it learns from mistakes and mistakes come in a variety of forms, blunders being one.
To make decisions there has to be values of importance and we’ve all seen how those values change over time. I don’t want to be told I can’t do something because it’s too dangerous. I don’t mind being informed but I wouldn’t want all my choices taken away. There are so many scenarios possible that could be used in a sci fi story that could end up being real life.

(Bill Ames) #11

Sounds like a typical four year old.
This is what I had access to as a 10 year old:

My last work before retiring was developing a mass spectrometer. (this is the tool you use to weigh an atom.)

Read the article to see what we get now, very disappointing.

(Barry McCormack) #12

Haha I’m a 65yo four year old and wow, you live an extraordinary life Bill. Deep respect friend :+1:

(Chris Lagos) #13

I value clarity, I want to see clearly and articulate what I see . Observing a negative outcome based on observations doesn’t equate a negative attitude.

(Bill Ames) #14

Observing a positive outcome based on observations usually equates to a positive attitude.

Definition of optimistic
: of, relating to, or characterized by optimism: feeling or showing hope for the future.

(Chris Lagos) #15

I think that is a fallacy. If say, you see a car backing up , with a small child in it’s path, you should probably state your observations in real time to prevent an accident, the driver may assume you have a bad attitude, but the report is an observation, attitude aside.
As they say “don’t shoot the messenger”.

(Chris Lagos) #16

I don’t boldly go anywhere, except sometimes to the restroom. Even then I try to see with clarity to avoid a negative outcome in navigation.

:movie_camera: Interstellar - “rage, rage against the dying of the light” - YouTube

(Chris Lagos) #17

Yes, I’ll take the guy. That’s the trade off that makes society work. You answer the call of societal needs with your skill . You trust that somehow you can live off the reward of your efforts. That’s always been the deal.
Throwing all that away for simplicity, laziness or or just going with the “be cool” flow , shows a nihilistic lack of vision.

:movie_camera: Do Not Go Gentle Into That Good Night - Read By … - YouTube

(Bill Ames) #18

There are 7 billion people, each with some problem or another, on the average you can not do much no matter how much you want to answer that call. However, if you look at what is collectively best for the 7 billion, put that task to the AIs, they can manage big problems. Could you work at solving a problem 24/7 for a year if humanity depended on your results? No, we must use all the tools at our disposal to solve problems. We may soon have a quantum computer that we can use but do not fully understand the science. Is it wrong to do that? As humanity expands to the stars with the AI ships and quantum devices we will learn a lot. As we discover new worlds we may have to modify our DNA to adapt to new living conditions. The world we have today is really not very advanced, it is discovering so much new stuff that will take hundreds of years to put in our homes and bodies. We have so much to do, just enjoy the ride.

(Chris Lagos) #19

Problems of 7 billion people are best answered by 7 billion people in my view.

(Chris Lagos) #20

Physiologically, men need physical mastery of the environment to produce testosterone. Women need men that have testosterone, they may say " I just want a nice guy " . Go find a harlequin novel about a nice guy, I suspect you won’t.
Physiologically, humans need to master the environment. Psychologically, humans need to master the environment in order to stabilize and procreate.
The science is in folks . I suspect that we have no idea what stranger we’re about to let in the door.